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LGBT

A safe space for the LGBT folk to discuss their lives, issues, interests, and passions. LGBT is a popular term used to discuss gender and sexual minorities, but all GSM are welcome beyond lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people who consent to participate in a safe space.

AwareMonk , Official account of AwareMonk Oct, 04 2016

De-Criminalisation of Section 377: Why is law driven by religion?


Section 377 reads:

“Unnatural offences: Whoever voluntarily has carnal intercourse against the order of nature with any man, woman or animal shall be punished with imprisonment for life, or with imprisonment of either description for term which may extend to ten years, and shall also be liable to fine.”

In simple words, the section makes physical relations between two consenting adults of the same sex a punishable offence. Further, the reference to “intercourse against the order of nature” also criminalises sexual activity like anal sex, fellatio (commonly known as blowjob) etc., even if it takes place between a man and a woman. However, although not mentioned in so many words, sexually assaulting a minor too invites a punishment under Section 377, apart from the relevant sections of the POCSO (Protection of Children from Sexual Offences) Act. Necrophilia (sexual intercourse with a dead body), sex with animals and other such ‘unnatural’ practices too fall under the ambit of the section.


Section 377 reads:“Unnatural offences: Whoever voluntarily has carnal intercourse against the order of nature with any man, woman or animal shall be punished with imprisonment for life, or with imprisonment of either description for term which may extend to ten years, and shall also be liable to fine.”In simple words, the section makes physical relations between two consenting adults of the same sex a punishable offence. Further, the reference to “intercourse against the order of nature” also criminalises sexual activity like anal sex, fellatio (commonly known as blowjob) etc., even if it takes place between a man and a woman. However, although not mentioned in so many words, sexually assaulting a minor too invites a punishment under Section 377, apart from the relevant sections of the POCSO (Protection of Children from Sexual Offences) Act. Necrophilia (sexual intercourse with a dead body), sex with animals and other such ‘unnatural’ practices too fall under the ambit of the section.

Vikranth Prasanna , Activist and blogger Oct, 04 2016


I think the discussion is about decriminalizing 377 but not about child adoption or same sex marriage or any other. And the discussion must stick to that. We are talking about civil rights where our constitution has been framed based on inclusiveness and equal rights to all. LGBT people should not be considered as 377 because of their alternate sexuality and they should not be punished because of what they are doing in their bedrooms. Consensual sex between two adults even if it is of same gender should not be considered as crime, definitely not in a democratic country as India. Our constitution was not framed based on religious principles. Our fore fathers created it to ensure that equal rights, protection and empowerment has been provided to all without any discrimination. Section 377 is against that very basic principle. And it should be read down at the earliest. Until then we cannot claim ourselves to be living in a complete democracy.
I think the discussion is about decriminalizing 377 but not about child adoption or same sex marriage or any other. And the discussion must stick to that. We are talking about civil rights where our constitution has been framed based on inclusiveness and equal rights to all. LGBT people should not b


Abhishek Sharma , Engineer @ IBM Oct, 04 2016


But why do you think its taking so much time for us to adapt this. Even the educated youth seems to be divided in its opinions. Someone here shared a link that 38% of students think that its a disease.


Samyukta Ramnath , BITS. Electrical and Electronics Engineering Oct, 04 2016


+100


Harshit Agrawal , I do what i wishes do Oct, 04 2016


LGBTQIA are like sugar and they just want to add in milk (society) to make it more sweet


Nikita Nain , Seeks vibrancy in life Oct, 04 2016


Beautifully worded!


Abhishek Sharma , Engineer @ IBM Oct, 04 2016


This is quote worthy :)


Harshit Agrawal , I do what i wishes do Oct, 04 2016


Thanks


Gaurav Arya , First hand experience in whatever i speak Oct, 04 2016


Just a thought!

Why can we not criminalise begging by Transgenders and have some privilege (like a quota) to lift them and make sure they are treated equally?

Give government gifts or subsidies to Gay and Lesbian marriages (to make sure its not an outcast anymore). In the end, its not a matter of legality, social acceptance is more important than legal acceptance. The morality of the system is what is lacking.

Just a thought! Why can we not criminalise begging by Transgenders and have some privilege (like a quota) to lift them and make sure they are treated equally?Give government gifts or subsidies to Gay and Lesbian marriages (to make sure its not an outcast anymore). In the end, its not a matter of leg


Koninika Roy , Advocacy Manager at the Humsafar Trust. Oct, 04 2016


Tell me, if you cut off their means of income, would you employ a hijra as a maid in ur home? Would a watchman allow entry to a corporate office to a transperson? There are very practical reasons why begging is their means of income. Because they have been systematically ostracized from society. This starts early in life.. in school when they leave their schools because of too much bullying. A lot of them are drop outs. They do not have the qualifications to apply for your 'respectable' jobs.
Tell me, if you cut off their means of income, would you employ a hijra as a maid in ur home? Would a watchman allow entry to a corporate office to a transperson? There are very practical reasons why begging is their means of income. Because they have been systematically ostracized from society. Thi


PK , I, Me, Myself :P Oct, 09 2016


Then is there any job these people can take up instead of begging.. and i would actually love to come up with something people need on daily basis.. n we can generate using this people..


S.N Raman , learning, hope to be more aware :) PhD schola Oct, 09 2016


This a very good thought. PK Why don't you start a new discussion on this topic. Let's all of us discuss this and reach some action worthy conclusion.


Aditya Singh , Starting up. Just learnt before launch its ca Oct, 09 2016


We need to find regular jobs for them. What do you suggest should we do to improve on their situation. I say let's start with educating them. Let's organise places where we can gather the trans and spend some time to teach the kids?


Sudhanshu , Live and let live Oct, 04 2016


Precisely! Make sure there are reservations for them. The concept of reservation started of with bringing in equality and this is what is needed here as well.

If there needs to be places kept empty for them to grab, then only we can hope for a better future for them and us. Things need to be radically changed.

Precisely! Make sure there are reservations for them. The concept of reservation started of with bringing in equality and this is what is needed here as well. If there needs to be places kept empty for them to grab, then only we can hope for a better future for them and us. Things need to be radical


Koninika Roy , Advocacy Manager at the Humsafar Trust. Oct, 04 2016


Well not really, criminalizing begging is criminalizing entire hijra cultures that have been built over centuries. Yes, the system is not perfect but criminalization does not solve anything. It just cuts off whatever little means of income they did have. Rather, the focus should be on social entitlement and positive discrimination. This means the freedom to choose one's gender oneself, the right to access to key institutions like hospitals and schools
Well not really, criminalizing begging is criminalizing entire hijra cultures that have been built over centuries. Yes, the system is not perfect but criminalization does not solve anything. It just cuts off whatever little means of income they did have. Rather, the focus should be on social entitle


Gaurav Arya , First hand experience in whatever i speak Oct, 04 2016


Not really, if there is an alternate job/stream for them to pursue things it might just set things right. The reason behind the hatred/ discomfort with Hijras is due to them being uneducated/ illiterate and them begging. If given a proper platform or a stand it surely would help in the upliftment. If not this then what do you suggest?
Not really, if there is an alternate job/stream for them to pursue things it might just set things right. The reason behind the hatred/ discomfort with Hijras is due to them being uneducated/ illiterate and them begging. If given a proper platform or a stand it surely would help in the upliftment. I


Koninika Roy , Advocacy Manager at the Humsafar Trust. Oct, 04 2016


Yes, this is needed but the way to go about it is not criminalization but provision of ways and means to get there. This can be through reservation and inclusion policies.


Gaurav Arya , First hand experience in whatever i speak Oct, 04 2016


Yes its a natural thing, yes you have the freedom, but what about your society? It is in the child’s best interests that he be raised under the influence of his natural father and mother. This rule is confirmed by the evident difficulties faced by the many children who are orphans or are raised by a single parent, a relative, or a foster parent.

The unfortunate situation of these children will be the norm for all children of a same-sex marriage. A child of a same-sex marriage will always be deprived of either his natural mother or father. He will always be deprived of either a mother or a father role model and thus will have tendencies towards being gay or lesbian, no theres nothing wrong in that

Yes its a natural thing, yes you have the freedom, but what about your society? It is in the child’s best interests that he be raised under the influence of his natural father and mother. This rule is confirmed by the evident difficulties faced by the many children who are orphans or are raised by


Vikranth Prasanna , Activist and blogger Oct, 04 2016


"He will always be deprived of either a mother or a father role model and thus will have tendencies towards being gay or lesbian" - do you have any proof or stats to prove the above point?


I was born for a natural mother and a father and brought up in a very conservative family. Why am i gay then?. This prove that you need to know more about 'homosexuality' and 'LGBT'. It cant be taught, sexual orientation is not something like a history subject to be taught and influenced. It is as natural as heterosexuality.


We are only talking about decriminalizing 377, we are not talking about child adoption.

"He will always be deprived of either a mother or a father role model and thus will have tendencies towards being gay or lesbian" - do you have any proof or stats to prove the above point? I was born for a natural mother and a father and brought up in a very conservative family. Why am i gay then?.


Koninika Roy , Advocacy Manager at the Humsafar Trust. Oct, 04 2016


LGBTQ people exist in society. Yours AND mine. Are you telling me that ALL children born out of heterosexual unions are perfect? Research done by GLAAD actually reveals that children thrive when they are raised by same sex parents http://www.glaad.org/blog/study-shows-children-raised-same-sex-parents-thrive
LGBTQ people exist in society. Yours AND mine. Are you telling me that ALL children born out of heterosexual unions are perfect? Research done by GLAAD actually reveals that children thrive when they are raised by same sex parents http://www.glaad.org/blog/study-shows-children-raised-same-sex-parent


Harshit Agrawal , I do what i wishes do Oct, 04 2016


It is about how a child is raised and not about by whom he/she is raised


Aditya Meduri , Mechanical Engineering Undergrad Oct, 04 2016


Nurture has no effect on the sexuality of a person, it is something inherent and cannot be changed irrespective of "how" or by "whom" they were raised.


Queer Campus , A queer youth collective based in Bangalore, Oct, 04 2016


http://www.apa.org/about/policy/parenting.aspx


Extract from a paragraph available on the above link: "Research suggests that sexual identities (including gender identity, gender-role behavior, and sexual orientation) develop in much the same ways among children of lesbian mothers as they do among children of heterosexual parents (Patterson, 2004a). Studies of other aspects of personal development (including personality, self-concept, and conduct) similarly reveal few differences between children of lesbian mothers and children of heterosexual parents (Perrin, 2002; Stacey & Biblarz, 2001; Tasker, 1999)."


The entire article is illuminating with regards to your concerns.

http://www.apa.org/about/policy/parenting.aspxExtract from a paragraph available on the above link: "Research suggests that sexual identities (including gender identity, gender-role behavior, and sexual orientation) develop in much the same ways among children of lesbian mothers as they do among ch



Gaurav Arya , First hand experience in whatever i speak Oct, 04 2016


They are not saying anything against being gay or lesbian. But being trans is similar to being addicted to drugs. Its illegal because you are harming your body and thus legality is needed.


Vikranth Prasanna , Activist and blogger Oct, 04 2016


You are just plain homophobic and your arguments makes no sense.


Koninika Roy , Advocacy Manager at the Humsafar Trust. Oct, 04 2016


First of all being trans is not illegal. And yes ,they are saying a LOT of things against being gay or lesbian. Finally, being trans is not an addiction. It is the state of mismatch between assigned sex at birth and psychological gender.


Harshit Agrawal , I do what i wishes do Oct, 04 2016


None of transgender harms his or her body .Transgender means perosn who is not compatible with social roles assign to his/her sex by society


Samyukta Ramnath , BITS. Electrical and Electronics Engineering Oct, 04 2016


Agreed.

Plus, taking hormones is not the same thing as being addicted to drugs. Would you call someone suffering from a hormonal disorder who has to take hormones their whole life, a drug abuser?





Nikhil Dua , BITS alumnus, Market research analyst at Cred Oct, 04 2016


Also this.



Harshit Agrawal , I do what i wishes do Oct, 04 2016


Being lgbt is natural because it happens in nature. Being lgbt is not against religion because every religion teachs humanity. Being lgbt is not a disease and mental problem. But being lgbt doesn't give anyone right to discriminate with us . we are also humans and just asking our rights as human


Rema , Have come to discuss Oct, 04 2016


I believe that people who are lesbian, gay, or bisexual are welcome to be in relationships with other people of whatever gender they choose. However, transexuals, are different. They are people who have gone through surgery to change their sexual organs. People who are so obsessed with sex that they will undergo painful and expensive surgery in order to satisfy their sexual whims, are in my opinion, the rough moral equivalent of salmon, who spend their entire lives in a single minded quest to mate and reproduce.
I believe that people who are lesbian, gay, or bisexual are welcome to be in relationships with other people of whatever gender they choose. However, transexuals, are different. They are people who have gone through surgery to change their sexual organs. People who are so obsessed with sex that they


Vikranth Prasanna , Activist and blogger Oct, 04 2016


That was so transphobic. People do not change their sexual organs just for the sexual quest. There are 'n' number of reasons that they wanted to go for a gender transformation. One of the main reason is that they feel that they are born physically in a wrong gender and their mind and body are not on the same line. I think you need to understand transexuality better to pass on comments like that.
That was so transphobic. People do not change their sexual organs just for the sexual quest. There are 'n' number of reasons that they wanted to go for a gender transformation. One of the main reason is that they feel that they are born physically in a wrong gender and their mind and body are not on


Nikita Nain , Seeks vibrancy in life Oct, 04 2016


Basing a technical law on open ended religious interpretations, which can twisted to mean different things in different contexts, especially belonging to bygone eras, is plain stupidity and poor legal prudence.

Laws are meant to help the administration make the lives of people better. Instead we choose to keep draconian and blind-sighted laws which oppress the ones who don't flow with the stream of accepted norms.

In India such laws prove that we are more a mobocracy, supporting the most vociferous and loud mouths and not a democracy, lending our ears to ALL the affected parties.

Basing a technical law on open ended religious interpretations, which can twisted to mean different things in different contexts, especially belonging to bygone eras, is plain stupidity and poor legal prudence.Laws are meant to help the administration make the lives of people better. Instead we choo


Gaurav Arya , First hand experience in whatever i speak Oct, 04 2016


Though what you say is true but parties listen to the masses and the mass believes being LGBT is a heinous crime. Its a disease, like something is wrong.

We dont need a law, we need a change in phycological thinking.



Koninika Roy , Advocacy Manager at the Humsafar Trust. Oct, 04 2016


What is surprising is that most discussions on the issue do not touch on the meat of the actual judgement which conveniently glosses over cultural and religious opposition but the media harp on and on about it. If the issue is the law, why don't we talk about rights?


Nikhil Dua , BITS alumnus, Market research analyst at Cred Oct, 04 2016


Who grant the power to access rights, its the law


Samyukta Ramnath , BITS. Electrical and Electronics Engineering Oct, 04 2016


What does the media harp on and on about?


Koninika Roy , Advocacy Manager at the Humsafar Trust. Oct, 04 2016


On religious opposition and the views of bigots spreading inaccurate information on sexuality and culture


Nikhil Dua , BITS alumnus, Market research analyst at Cred Oct, 04 2016


One of my friend once asked me: Why is homosexuality argued as natural because we see it in nature?

I replied: Well, it is natural because we see it in nature. That's what natural means - a thing that is found in nature, as opposed to something made by humans.

The problem happens when people make the leap from natural to good/moral/right, and unnatural to bad/immoral/wrong. It's pretty clearly obvious that this isn't true - necrophilia and cannibalism are completely natural but not acceptable or good, while computers, vaccinations and indoor plumbing are unnatural but pretty damn great.

People who are against any of the various non-straight sexualities will often say it's wrong because it's unnatural. Those who want to argue then have two main points to make against; they can either a) point out that natural does not mean good, or b) point out that homosexuality is natural. The second option is often just easier to make, or sometimes people don't notice the first option is even there because we're so used to hearing natural = good.

One of my friend once asked me: Why is homosexuality argued as natural because we see it in nature?I replied: Well, it is natural because we see it in nature. That's what natural means - a thing that is found in nature, as opposed to something made by humans. The problem happens when people make the


Nikhil Dua , BITS alumnus, Market research analyst at Cred Oct, 04 2016


Harshit Agrawal read this for your argument of "Being lgbt is natural because it happens in nature." in another opinion.


Pawan Dhall , Gender and sexuality related writer and activ Oct, 04 2016


To add to this, what about clothes? If homosexuality has to exist "in nature" and not just among humans to be considered natural, why do we wear clothes? Do animals or plants wear them? Should we?


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Yes, well said


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Yes one must not confuse morality with what is or not natural, if it is in nature, obviously it is natural


Sakshi Sharma , Freelancer Designer Oct, 04 2016


And then comes this. "Homosexuality can be ‘cured’, say 38% of IIT Bombay students" http://thewire.in/70736/homosexuality-lgbtq-iit-bombay/


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


I am also from the lgBt iIT community, a rebuttal.id on its way tomorrow in Mid Day, the news highlighted only the negative aspect of the survey , in fact s majority of students did not have any issues with lgBt folks


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


There are obviously certain misperceptions and lack of knowledge among the broader public which oVer time will be corrected


Nikhil Dua , BITS alumnus, Market research analyst at Cred Oct, 04 2016


Guys Harshit Agrawal Balachandran Ramiah Rohit Revi Koninika Roy Pawan Dhall what do you think can be done to make, atleast the rational class aware of the subject.


Vikranth Prasanna , Activist and blogger Oct, 04 2016


As many LGBT individuals come out as they can to their peers. It is our responsibility that we need to voice for our own rights and acceptance. We need to talk about LGBT rights to as many people as we can.


Create support forums wherever we can, take it to the mainstream and discuss about it.



Rohit Revi , Orenda, Gender and Sexuality Club, IIT-Gandhi Oct, 04 2016


Educate. Agitate.

Support groups and discussion forums must align with the broad political left, and understand their problems in the context of and in relation to the economic and social establishment. A dialectical association with the working class, dalit, Muslim and feminist struggles will help the cause.
Educate. Agitate.Support groups and discussion forums must align with the broad political left, and understand their problems in the context of and in relation to the economic and social establishment. A dialectical association with the working class, dalit, Muslim and feminist struggles will help t


Pawan Dhall , Gender and sexuality related writer and activ Oct, 04 2016


I understand what you mean, but what is "rational class"? People across classes can be homophobic or supportive. But in terms of action to be taken, while we should continue discussing and sensitizing people till god knows when, the laws and policies must become supportive sooner. I mean both efforts need to be parallel, but we can't wait for society to become more accepting for the laws and policies to be truly inclusive, and if constitutional morality has to be upheld.
I understand what you mean, but what is "rational class"? People across classes can be homophobic or supportive. But in terms of action to be taken, while we should continue discussing and sensitizing people till god knows when, the laws and policies must become supportive sooner. I mean both effort


Harshit Agrawal , I do what i wishes do Oct, 04 2016


According to me we should tell people more stories with queer themes in our indian culture


Samyukta Ramnath , BITS. Electrical and Electronics Engineering Oct, 04 2016


Texts and stories in regional languages are a good way to spread awareness among the older generation. Orinam is doing good work in this regard. Humsafar Trust also publishes stories and guides in regional languages from time to time.


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Media strongly liberal and in support of lgBt rights, at least the English media by and large, we just need to make people aware gay folks are just normal like everybody else, just their desire for love flows differently


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Greater visibility, more discussion, families and parents being made more aware, enrolling the support of allies, globally that is how mind sets have changed positive over years


Koninika Roy , Advocacy Manager at the Humsafar Trust. Oct, 04 2016


I do not agree that we need to work with a said "rational class" and would argue that it doesn't exist. However, I do agree with Bala that there needs to be more discussion, greater involvement in political discussions and education on sexuality and gender.


Harshit Agrawal , I do what i wishes do Oct, 04 2016


First don't spread myths it is a survey in which 38% IIT Bombay students "think" that homosexuality can be cure. This data come because people are uneducated on this issue . we need to educate them


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


It is a section highly dated not relevant to present times is a clear violation of basic human rights and time to be put in a garbage bin


Akshat Rao , Junior Scientist at BARC, Trying Awaremonk. Oct, 04 2016


what is the core of supreme court's judgement?


Harshit Agrawal , I do what i wishes do Oct, 04 2016


Supreme court says that it is the work of parliament to amend or make laws. It never metion that it is against indian culture


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


True


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


That the lawmakers should amend the law and not the court, that is weird as world over miNority rights are won in courts, not by a popular vote


Harshit Agrawal , I do what i wishes do Oct, 04 2016


It is very sad that supreme court in its verdict said that lgbt are miniscule minority to secure their rights . In democracy rights of a single person should be protected


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Yes but also sad many gay folks are not visible and the judge thought we are very small in numbers, the need of the hour is to be visible as s large miNority, millions


Akshat Rao , Junior Scientist at BARC, Trying Awaremonk. Oct, 04 2016


As asked by someone in the discussion, what if gay sex becomes a phenomenon and the world eventually starts adapting it. How will the civilization grow?


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


A lot of gay folks out of shame and guilt try to adapt to hetero lives sadly with no success, don't think it will work the other way either


Rohit Revi , Orenda, Gender and Sexuality Club, IIT-Gandhi Oct, 04 2016


That sexual relations are procreative is an assumption, which is itself drawn from the texts that are being defended here. Sexual relations are not procreative. Particular sexual acts (penile-vaginal intercourse with ejaculation involved) can be procreative. These are two different things.

We need to urgently stop evaluating homosexual identities as a "choice" that individuals take. Homosexuality is not a choice that "the whole world will adapt to". Misplaced good intentions of civilizational welfare and growth and progress, should not prohibit the actual (stated) purpose of social organizations; liberty, justice and freedom.

That sexual relations are procreative is an assumption, which is itself drawn from the texts that are being defended here. Sexual relations are not procreative. Particular sexual acts (penile-vaginal intercourse with ejaculation involved) can be procreative. These are two different things.We need to


Koninika Roy , Advocacy Manager at the Humsafar Trust. Oct, 04 2016


Homosexuality can be found n the greatest civilizations that have ever walked the earth. Name them and you will most likely find evidence of homosexuality, transgender culture, and various other sexual subcultures. Homophobia and homosexual anxiety are relatively recent inventions (see the history of Victorian era psychiatry for more on homosexual panic). Sexual diversity is not a threat to culture, but stigma and discrimination are. Lastly and most importantly HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT SOMETHING THAT CAN BE CAUGHT. It is not a disease. It is not an illness. It is a particular expression of desire/an individual's orientation towards others. These questions about civilization, human extinction, etc operate on the premise that being gay is something that can be transmitted from one person to another. The world won't stop being straight because I start sleeping with women. things just do not work that way and history would support me in this instance.
Homosexuality can be found n the greatest civilizations that have ever walked the earth. Name them and you will most likely find evidence of homosexuality, transgender culture, and various other sexual subcultures. Homophobia and homosexual anxiety are relatively recent inventions (see the history o


Pawan Dhall , Gender and sexuality related writer and activ Oct, 04 2016


We have always had homosexuality and bisexuality since antiquity. Did the world die out? It was expressed differently in different cultures, but the difference is that today it is political, the subject of a social movement and therefore "more visible". That might make it appear threatening, but human sexuality is never about either this or only that. It is a range of experiences, but we always talk about it in terms of specific boxes. Across people there will always be diverse sexualities, unless we kill off a certain section. And even within the same person sexuality may be fluid at any given point of time or over the years. Last but not the least, heterosexuality is given the credit for the existence of civilization. But the fact is, if we look around ourselves, just giving birth to children is not enough to nurture a civilization. In fact, even LGBT people have reproductive abilities. But what about parenting? That is a skill and a desire that can exist irrespective of one's sexuality.
We have always had homosexuality and bisexuality since antiquity. Did the world die out? It was expressed differently in different cultures, but the difference is that today it is political, the subject of a social movement and therefore "more visible". That might make it appear threatening, but hum


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Absolutely, live and let live should be the motto and a healthy respect for diversity on all aspects including sexuality


Nikhil Dua , BITS alumnus, Market research analyst at Cred Oct, 04 2016


It is definitely a religious issue, but how is it political?


Samyukta Ramnath , BITS. Electrical and Electronics Engineering Oct, 04 2016


Something like 10% of the population is supposed to be 'non-heterosexual'. Of this you also have the bisexual population. So I don't think that one needs to be worried about the human race dying out because of gay sex. We might nuke ourselves out of existence before that.


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Ha Ha the only converts would be those who were anyways gsy and were deep in the closet


Queer Campus , A queer youth collective based in Bangalore, Oct, 04 2016


That is a distant utopia and with advances in science particularly in stem cell research which will hopefully allow, in the future, for two people of the same sex to have babies of their own, the idea of having no progeny is a tad unrealistic. As for those who may want natural babies, why are we forgetting bisexuals?

Regardless, sexual orientation isn't usually a fad that is adapted by the masses.

That is a distant utopia and with advances in science particularly in stem cell research which will hopefully allow, in the future, for two people of the same sex to have babies of their own, the idea of having no progeny is a tad unrealistic. As for those who may want natural babies, why are we for


Arushi Singh , Here to become a monk :) Oct, 04 2016


Just curious... what is the religiosity of the people in LGBT?


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


It is also diverse, the light is s micro cosm of the broader society and has siMilar diversity on class caste religion etc but yes when ones religion expressly prohibited ones natural inclination it leads to distress and the phoNy religious leaders make it worse


Maidanta , Lesbian social worker Oct, 04 2016


How does that even matter? The entire aim behind the debate is to see human freedom separate from religion. What is the point of bringing it up again?


Arushi Singh , Here to become a monk :) Oct, 04 2016


Maidanta sorry if it was offensive, wasn't intended to be.

I was curious that the community is against the idea of religion itslef because it denies their basic rights



Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


No, not against religion, only against hypocritical religious leader s many whom are themselves homo but are hiding behind propagating homophobia


Koninika Roy , Advocacy Manager at the Humsafar Trust. Oct, 04 2016


See this recent news article for some information about the connections between LGBTQ politics and religion amongst some community members. Otherwise, I am not sure there is official data on sexuality and religion in India. Yes, they’re gay. And pious too - The Times of India


Samyukta Ramnath , BITS. Electrical and Electronics Engineering Oct, 04 2016


This is a very interesting question. Are many members of the LGBT community atheists, or non-practicing members of their religion? Because no matter what religious text you bring out supposedly supporting queer issues, whether from Christianity, Islam or Hindiusm, the fact is that current religious attitudes are wholly against LGBT rights, period.
Curious to hear from religious members of the LGBT community.
This is a very interesting question. Are many members of the LGBT community atheists, or non-practicing members of their religion? Because no matter what religious text you bring out supposedly supporting queer issues, whether from Christianity, Islam or Hindiusm, the fact is that current religious


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


No.nothing of that sort, we all go to temples, church and so.on


Rohit Revi , Orenda, Gender and Sexuality Club, IIT-Gandhi Oct, 04 2016


Whether or not religious texts in its "truest", "most original" forms permit or prohibit homosexuality should not be a concern for the scope of this discussion. It should not be a concern for us to engage comparatively with every interpretation of every text and choose the one that is the most allied with the community. This is a waste of energy, time and dialogue space, precisely because it is an inconsequential effort. What religions themselves speak of is a matter of academic reconciliation for those interested, what religious organizations speak of is of immediate and urgent importance. Many of laws within social organizations have been grounded in particular world-views of particular religio-social organizations.

What is true is that religious organizations as social organizations (and here we are talking about the dominant institutions of power; the church, VHP) in the social values they exhibit, endorse and often coerce, present themselves as orthodox and homophobic. In contemporary India, we need to resist the very social fabric that makes it normal for these institutions of power to designate how and where people ought to live. Religion is an easy target, religious organizations are not. The latter is where laws are made and/or operationalized, every now and then. This is to be resisted.
Whether or not religious texts in its "truest", "most original" forms permit or prohibit homosexuality should not be a concern for the scope of this discussion. It should not be a concern for us to engage comparatively with every interpretation of every text and choose the one that is the most allie


Samyukta Ramnath , BITS. Electrical and Electronics Engineering Oct, 04 2016


Well said. Religious leaders who have influence over the masses are not going to agree with a section or interpretation of a holy book that negates their view. The fact is that laws in a nation should not be religious.


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Yes absolutely


Dr. P.S. Sahni & Shobha Aggarwal , AIDS Bhedbhav Virodhi Andolan Oct, 04 2016


I will break it down for different religions:

Christian Attitudes

“It is generally believed that Christianity has been unrelentingly hostile to gay people and their sexual activities. However, historian John Boswell, in his influential book Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality (1981) argues that this is not so. The Early Christian Church, for instance, does not appear to have opposed homosexual behaviour per se. The most influential Christian literature was moot on this issue and no prominent writers considered homosexual attraction "unnatural". Those who objected to these feelings did so on the basis of considerations unrelated to the teachings of Jesus or his early followers. Gay saints and gay marriages were not unknown. Jesus himself did not say much about sexuality. He neither condemned sexuality among the unmarried nor say anything in relation to homosexuality. The only sexual issue which concerned him was fidelity. He regarded friendship as the highest form of human commitment.

Between 1250 and 1300, however, homosexual activity passed from being completely legal in most of Europe to incurring the death penalty almost everywhere. This sudden hostility was linked to a general increase of intolerance of minority groups in ecclesiastical and secular institutions throughout the 13th and 14th centuries. This was reflected in crusades against non-Christians and heretics and the expulsion of Jews from many areas of Europe, the rise of the Inquisition, efforts to stamp out sorcery and witchcraft, etc.”

I will break it down for different religions:Christian Attitudes “It is generally believed that Christianity has been unrelentingly hostile to gay people and their sexual activities. However, historian John Boswell, in his influential book Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality (1981) a


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Homosexuality has existed in all cultures and at all times, all historical books refer to that, in Hindu mythology, sexuality and gender fluidity are a common theme, section 377 is s colonial hangover from the British


Dr. P.S. Sahni & Shobha Aggarwal , AIDS Bhedbhav Virodhi Andolan Oct, 04 2016


Muslim Culture

“In Islamic Sufi literature homosexual eroticism was a major metaphorical expression of the spiritual relationship between god and man, and much Persian poetry and fiction used gay relationships as examples of moral love. Although the Quran and early religious writings of Islam display mildly negative attitudes toward homosexuality, Muslim cultures treated homosexuality with indifference, if not admiration. The classic works of Arabic poetry and prose, from Abu Nuwas to the Thousand and One Nights, treat gay people and their sexuality with respect or casual acceptance. The Arabic language contains a huge vocabulary of gay erotic terminology, with dozens of words just to describe types of male prostitutes. Erotic address by one male to another is the standard convention of Arabic love poetry; even poems really written for women frequently use male pronouns and metaphors of male beauty. The association of homosexual feelings with moral looseness appears to be a comparatively recent phenomenon. (John Boswell, Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality).”

Muslim Culture “In Islamic Sufi literature homosexual eroticism was a major metaphorical expression of the spiritual relationship between god and man, and much Persian poetry and fiction used gay relationships as examples of moral love. Although the Quran and early religious writings of Islam disp


Dr. P.S. Sahni & Shobha Aggarwal , AIDS Bhedbhav Virodhi Andolan Oct, 04 2016


Hinduism

a. Kamasutra, written by sage Vatsyana in 4th - 5th century A.D. contains an entire chapter, Auparishtaka on homosexual sex. The Kamasutra records that Auparishtaka is practiced by the following--male citizens, who know each other well, among themselves; women, when they are amorous, do the acts of the mouth on the yonis of one another; some men do the same with women; male servants of some men carry on the mouth congress with their masters; eunuchs with males.

Vatsyana insists that this practice is allowed by the orders of the Holy Writ (Dharam Shastras) with just a few exceptions.

Hinduism a. Kamasutra, written by sage Vatsyana in 4th - 5th century A.D. contains an entire chapter, Auparishtaka on homosexual sex. The Kamasutra records that Auparishtaka is practiced by the following--male citizens, who know each other well, among themselves; women, when they are amorous, do the


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Yes though of course that was relevant to that era, now that we are in 2016, we need to move on with the times and understand globally the right to love is deemed a basic human right, that sec 377 forbids


jerinjohn89 , Oct, 04 2016


I am not sure about other religions but I can vouch for Christianity.
1) The Bible never said anything about lesbians, so if you're a female you can go ahead do whatever you like with your partner.

2) Bible did say (in the most ridiculous book of all time, Leviticus) that men can not lay with other men. That's specifically talking about male homosexual activities, more specifically, sodomy between two men. So if you are a gay person and you want to obey the (ridiculous) word of Leviticus (who know if it's actually from god), as long as you don't engage sodomy, you're safe. There're a lot of other sexual activities two gay men can do to get satisfied. I'm not an expert on gay sexual activities, but even I know that.

3) Bible also didn't explicitly say marriage is between a man and a woman, and didn't say there's absolutely NO OTHER WAY! In fact, there're plenty of people in the Bible who had multiple wives. So I'm pretty sure when people talking about defending the traditional definition of marriage based on Bible, most of them have no idea what they're talking about.

So, all in all, you can be a strict Catholic and still be gay, be lesbian, marry your partner, adopt children, have family, be happy, the ONLY thing you can not do is that gay men can't do it from behind. (And of course, if you go with Leviticus, trust me, sodomy is the least of your worries. Seriously, have you read that book? You can't wear mixed fiber clothing, you can't do overtime on Sunday, you can't eat shellfish... )

I am not sure about other religions but I can vouch for Christianity. 1) The Bible never said anything about lesbians, so if you're a female you can go ahead do whatever you like with your partner. 2) Bible did say (in the most ridiculous book of all time, Leviticus) that men can not lay with o


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Yup a lot of that stuff is not relevant to our times, sad people cite such texts to suppress young gay folks who have to grapple with how to balance their religious faith and their sexuality


Harshit Agrawal , I do what i wishes do Oct, 04 2016


India is a land where two women procreat a child "Bhagirath" a story from krittivasa Ramayana . A child " Mandhta" is born from a man's body a story from Mahabharata. In India we celebrate gender fluidity.


Nikita Nain , Seeks vibrancy in life Oct, 04 2016


Looking at it from this perspective is refreshing. To think of India in such a bright light of gender fluidity is a welcome change.


S.N Raman , learning, hope to be more aware :) PhD schola Oct, 04 2016


By citing religion to prove homosexuality is natural, are we not missing the point here. Because religion protagonist will come 10 more things to counter the point


Harshit Agrawal , I do what i wishes do Oct, 04 2016


Yes they can come with 10 more things because for them religion is a way to satisfy there power hunger.


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Yes we must not engage with religious leaders as they are not relevant, one cannot logically argue with blind faith, one must argue from the basic human right point, the right to protection and no discrimination under the law as guaranteed by the Constitution, also the crux of the 2009 Delhi HC judgment
Yes we must not engage with religious leaders as they are not relevant, one cannot logically argue with blind faith, one must argue from the basic human right point, the right to protection and no discrimination under the law as guaranteed by the Constitution, also the crux of the 2009 Delhi HC jud


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Absolutely, many male gods take on female forms in Hindu mythology, it is accepted , the message is that humans too have diverse expression of gender and sexuality all of which is valid


Armaan Kumar , An Activist fighting for what is rightfully m Oct, 04 2016


Since when has religion been the upholder of human rights in the country? Since when have religious leaders been called in to comment on the unspeakable in Indian culture what happens within the four walls of a bedroom, are religious leaders ever called in hold up human rights issues in general? The greatest movements forward in human rights have been through religious reformers and not through the traditional followers.
Since when has religion been the upholder of human rights in the country? Since when have religious leaders been called in to comment on the unspeakable in Indian culture what happens within the four walls of a bedroom, are religious leaders ever called in hold up human rights issues in general? The


Samyukta Ramnath , BITS. Electrical and Electronics Engineering Oct, 04 2016


The law of the land should not be according to religion, that's the basic point.


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Absolutely, we are a secular country and nobody has the right to shove their religious beliefs on others, as they say, if you do not like gsy marriage, don't go for it but you have no right to say others too shall not


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Religion is between an individual and his God or spiritual power or whatever, religious leaders have not much to contribute even there and much less in the sphere of sexuality and what two adults do in the privacy of their home or who they want to be with or love, in fact neither the state nor any religious leaders can have anything to do with that, it is a simple question of human right
Religion is between an individual and his God or spiritual power or whatever, religious leaders have not much to contribute even there and much less in the sphere of sexuality and what two adults do in the privacy of their home or who they want to be with or love, in fact neither the state nor any r


Rohit Revi , Orenda, Gender and Sexuality Club, IIT-Gandhi Oct, 04 2016


Correlation does not imply causation. It might be historically accurate to say that reforms pertinent to human rights have been carried out by people working within religious frameworks, but definitely not accurate to say that it was their frameworks than enabled them to be reformers. But it is also historically accurate the religious belief systems have been the reason why many reforms were needed in the first place. We need a complete separation of sectarian, communitarian beliefs from the laws that influence all of us.
Correlation does not imply causation. It might be historically accurate to say that reforms pertinent to human rights have been carried out by people working within religious frameworks, but definitely not accurate to say that it was their frameworks than enabled them to be reformers. But it is also


S.N Raman , learning, hope to be more aware :) PhD schola Oct, 04 2016


If gay people say its natural for them to be gay, they why deny rights of people who are pedophiles, they are naturally attracted to kids and if a kid agrees to it then there shouldn't be any legal problem. Am I missing something here?


Pawan Dhall , Gender and sexuality related writer and activ Oct, 04 2016


While I have nothing against adults being attracted to minors, acting out on that attraction, even if the minor agrees, is problematic. There is a question of power equation, and the adult is likely to have greater wherewithal to manage the relationship, perhaps even become exploitative about it.


Incidentally, paedophilia has age specific markers about it. There are many sources, but just to quote Wikipedia, a person who is paedophilic must be at least 16 years old and be attracted to pre-pubescent children, while adolescents must be at least five years older than the prepubescent child for the attraction to be diagnosed as paedophilia. So actually there is also a difference between paedophilia and child sexual abuse.

While I have nothing against adults being attracted to minors, acting out on that attraction, even if the minor agrees, is problematic. There is a question of power equation, and the adult is likely to have greater wherewithal to manage the relationship, perhaps even become exploitative about it.Inc


Samyukta Ramnath , BITS. Electrical and Electronics Engineering Oct, 04 2016


You are missing the fact that 377 criminalizes sex between consenting adults which cannot be equated to sex with a child and an adult, no matter whether the child 'agrees' or not. The power equation in a pedophilic relationship is different and unhealthy and not equal to the relationship between two adults who are peers. And the law should not have a say in the love lives of two consenting adults.
You are missing the fact that 377 criminalizes sex between consenting adults which cannot be equated to sex with a child and an adult, no matter whether the child 'agrees' or not. The power equation in a pedophilic relationship is different and unhealthy and not equal to the relationship between two


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


True, we are only talking about consensual relationship between adults, which no law or the state or any religion should have any business to do with


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Gay people want the right to love another adult with consent, pedophilia is about trying to seduce a person below the age of content, there is no comparison between the two


Koninika Roy , Advocacy Manager at the Humsafar Trust. Oct, 04 2016


Yes, you are missing legal age of consent. Children are not old enough to consent to sexual intercourse. Sexuality and pedophilia are not the same thing. Pedophilia is considered criminal and should be treated as such. We as part of the LGBTQ movement are fighting for the rights to be free to have consensual sex between consenting ADULTS in private

.

Yes, you are missing legal age of consent. Children are not old enough to consent to sexual intercourse. Sexuality and pedophilia are not the same thing. Pedophilia is considered criminal and should be treated as such. We as part of the LGBTQ movement are fighting for the rights to be free to have c


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Well said Koni


S.N Raman , learning, hope to be more aware :) PhD schola Oct, 04 2016


It was a genuine query not an offensive statement, thanks for clearing it out Koninika Roy and Balachandran Ramiah


Koninika Roy , Advocacy Manager at the Humsafar Trust. Oct, 04 2016


Thanks for being open to my view.


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Sure, no offence taken


Ahmed Azab , Interested in history, Political science and Oct, 04 2016


LGBT is unnatural sex. Indian law doesn't permit unnatural sex. Sex between man and animal, sex between adult and a child, anal sex all are illegal. It is not biased. In other format of unnatural sex both partners might be in consensus but is still considered unnatural, because that's not how we are made biologically.

Not religion only logic is required to understand this.

LGBT is unnatural sex. Indian law doesn't permit unnatural sex. Sex between man and animal, sex between adult and a child, anal sex all are illegal. It is not biased. In other format of unnatural sex both partners might be in consensus but is still considered unnatural, because that's not how we ar


Harshit Agrawal , I do what i wishes do Oct, 04 2016


It is totally natural from WHO to world Psychiatric Association has confirm that there is nothing wrong in being LGBT


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Yes it is not a disorder and is well within the normal spectrum of human sexuality, just cause a few find it objectionable or find it disgusting, one cannot have a law to prohibit it


Queer Campus , A queer youth collective based in Bangalore, Oct, 04 2016


Regarding how we humans are made biologically, one of the erogenous zones in the male body is the prostate and it is unofficially called the male G-spot. As logic goes, one of the many ways to experience sexual pleasure for men would be anal sex.


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Many heterosexuals also practise and sex and it is not something exclusive to gay people, further lesbians have other ways to be press their sexuality


Samyukta Ramnath , BITS. Electrical and Electronics Engineering Oct, 04 2016


1. Who decides what is natural?
2. Neither a child nor an animal can give consent, and that is why sexual relations between a human and animal or adult and child are illegal, and should be.



Koninika Roy , Advocacy Manager at the Humsafar Trust. Oct, 04 2016


What is natural sex to you? Is it just peno vaginal/ Or is it procreative only? Law dictates what natural and unnatural is. And that dictation is often arbitrarily decided. If we are talking about nature, numerous species of animals from penguins to lions to human beings exhibit same-sex sexual attraction. Homosexuality is completely natural bigotry is not. Yes, you are right, logic not religion is enough to explain this. Look at evidence from World Health Organization, World Psychiatric Association and even the Indian Psychiatric Society. Both have deemed this a natural occurrence.

 

What is natural sex to you? Is it just peno vaginal/ Or is it procreative only? Law dictates what natural and unnatural is. And that dictation is often arbitrarily decided. If we are talking about nature, numerous species of animals from penguins to lions to human beings exhibit same-sex sexual attr


Ahmed Azab , Interested in history, Political science and Oct, 04 2016


It is procreative.

Every body part has a function and it has evolved in a certain way to perform that function perfectly and is evolving further too.

What if gay sex is considered natural and the whole world follows it? what if?



Himanshu Nautiyal , CEO, Gludo Oct, 06 2016


This insistence on only doing what is natural is never applied consistently. Even the most hardcore adherents use all kinds of unnatural technology - cars, roads etc. And social conventions like marriage or religion - are these present in nature?


Koninika Roy , Advocacy Manager at the Humsafar Trust. Oct, 04 2016


Firstly, there is no gay sex there is only sex. We do it the same way everyoneelse does, except sometimes we have more fun doing it. Secondly, If you use condoms, have oral/anal sex, or any other kind of sex that is not for the explicit purposes of pregnancy, then by your definition it is NOT procreative sex, meaning that you are also a criminal and against the order of nation. The potential for procreativity does not sex make. Thirdly, homosexuality has been around for eons and the world has yet to become gay, try as much as heterosexuals might to regulate it, and the world has yet to turn gay. If anything the only problem here are your anxieties around difference. Desire is not an evolutionary construct. Attraction is what you feel towards another person. That is not something that evolutionary theory explains, culture, law, and society often dictate what we think is wrong or right. And sometimes (as 377 would suggest) society gets it dead wrong. Why does it matter so much what other people do in the privacy of their homes as long as it is consensual between adults? And finally 'gay sex' (read: sex) is natural....and FUN (if done safely and consensually).
Firstly, there is no gay sex there is only sex. We do it the same way everyoneelse does, except sometimes we have more fun doing it. Secondly, If you use condoms, have oral/anal sex, or any other kind of sex that is not for the explicit purposes of pregnancy, then by your definition it is NOT procre


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Ha Ha Ha yes certainly more fun doing it


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Why would the whole world follow it, one's sexuality is not so fragile that one day you are hetero and then the next day you are homo, mostly it is innate and there is no evidence to prove that acknowledging or making visible sections of society with alternate sexuality will lead to others adopting it
Why would the whole world follow it, one's sexuality is not so fragile that one day you are hetero and then the next day you are homo, mostly it is innate and there is no evidence to prove that acknowledging or making visible sections of society with alternate sexuality will lead to others adopting


Ahmed Azab , Interested in history, Political science and Oct, 04 2016




Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


That is pure rubbish, who is to say what is natural and what is unnatural, for gay folks it is perfectly normal to love and be attracted to a member of sane gender, nothing unnatural about it, as natural as being left handed


Ahmed Azab , Interested in history, Political science and Oct, 04 2016


Armaan Kumar I will like you to answer this


Queer Campus , A queer youth collective based in Bangalore, Oct, 04 2016


Children who are below the age of 18 are not legally allowed to consent to having a sexual relationship with those above 18 years of age because they are not considered to be old enough to have a well informed say in most matters including sexual relationships.


Balachandran Ramiah , Queer Activist Oct, 04 2016


Indeed



Conclusion

Sauradeep Debnath , Engineering student Oct, 05 2016


This draconian law of victorian era must be scraped. When will people stop discriminating someone for who they love? There are innumerable hatred-fuel heinous crimes rampant in society. Persecute hatred, not LOVE. Plus, it's not that LGBT people have any choice- they can't choose to be different. The section 377 is depriving them of basic human rights.